Tempest - Discussione Ufficiale

[Flaggy]

Ma quello è sottointeso...

[TT-1 Pinto]

Tempest ... emergono alcune precisazioni ...

Quote

Tempest’s purpose is to explore the technologies and systems that could form a future combat air system. 
It is not yet at the stage of building a demonstrator aircraft, it may never end up being in any way similar to the mock-up.
According to a Commons Library briefing paper (*) which provides a brief overview of the Strategy, the process is still at very early stages and is focused more on exploring and developing potential technologies.
It states that:
“Tempest was a fighter aircraft in World War Two, although the Strategy only uses this term in the context of ‘Team Tempest’ – it does not confirm this will be the name of whatever aircraft or system emerges.”

Fonte: ukdefencejournal.org.uk ... What is the purpose of Tempest? ...

(*) ... The Combat Air Strategy: From Typhoon to 'Tempest'? ...

[engine]

Insomma , non sanno che fare ....

Visto che il mock-up aveva una forma già così ben definita , pensavo che fossero più avanti.

Nonostante quello che dice l'articolo, penso che forma e prestazioni della macchina verranno fuori dalle discussioni con quei partner (  ? ,   ?? ,   ??? ,  ??? ! ,  - non si sa mai ) ,   di cui c'è bisogno per finanziare il progetto e che vorranno dire la loro     sui requisiti intorno ai quali progettare..... l'aereo .....   .  

[TT-1 Pinto]

Da un più ampio articolo di Jane's (282 of 593 words) ...

... RAF looks to Typhoon-Lightning-Tempest Force in 2030s ...

[engine]

Piccolo rilievo che appare , per adesso un OT; ingresso diretto di Boeing in Europa:

http://www.air-cosmos.com/boeing-inaugure-sa-premiere-usine-en-europe-116551

un modo cauto per avvicinarsi al " Tempest " ?

 

[Flaggy]

Non credo, anche perché gli investimenti per il nuovo stabilimento (peraltro dedicato ai liner civili) sono stati fatti prima che si sapesse del Tempest e con l'intento di produrre subassiemi a partire da componentistica già di produzione britanica.

E poi più che al Tempest Boeing ora pensa al suo caccia di sesta generazione.

[engine]

23 ore fa, Flaggy ha scritto:

Non credo, anche perché gli investimenti per il nuovo stabilimento (peraltro dedicato ai liner civili) sono stati fatti prima che si sapesse del Tempest e con l'intento di produrre subassiemi a partire da componentistica già di produzione britanica.

Per adesso.....   .

Tra l'altro Air & Cosmos cita lavori su 767( o forse , sbagliandosi, intendeva 787 ? ) e 737 , macchine che cominciano a essere datate ed è difficile pensare che si vada a costruire uno stabilimento senza una proiezione futura .

23 ore fa, Flaggy ha scritto:

E poi più che al Tempest Boeing ora pensa al suo caccia di sesta generazione.

Intanto però ha bisogno di fare esperienza con macchine di prestazioni avanzate , dopo il fiasco dello ( esteticamente orrendo ) X-32 . Del caccia di sesta generazione ,  si ha ancora un'idea fantascientifica ma , per adesso, non del tutto fissata.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/beyond-f-22-or-f-35-what-will-sixth-generation-jet-fighter-look-26451?page=0%2C1

Tra l'altro , nell'articolo :

" .....The Sixth-Generation fighter developers can be divided into two categories: the United States, which has developed and deployed two stealth fighter types, and countries that have skipped or given up on their attempt to build Fifth Generations jets. These latter countries have concluded that doing so is so time-consuming and expensive that it makes more sense to focus on tomorrow's technology than try to catch up with today's. The latter include France, Germany and the United Kingdom, which are in the preliminary stages of developing sixth-generation FCAS and Tempest fighters; Russia, which has given up on developing its Su-57 stealth fighter for at least a decade , but is talking up a conceptual sixth-generation MiG-41 interceptor; and Japan, which is contemplating a domestic sixth-generation F-3 stealth jet, but may settle for a foreign-inspired fifth generation design.    ....."

e

" ......Sixth-generation fighter programs remain strictly conceptual today, especially given the enormous expenses and effort devoted to working out the kinks in the Fifth-Generation. Many of the component technologies such as lasers, cooperative engagement, and unmanned piloting, are already in well under development, but integrating them into a single airframe will still prove a significant challenge.  At the earliest, sixth-generation fighters may crop up in the 2030s or 2040s—by which time concepts in air warfare will likely have evolved yet again. ... "

Non è detto che i britannici acquisiscano le esperienze e le conoscenze tecnologiche necessarie alla realizzazione del loro progetto in tempo utile ( 2035 - 2040 ) e una mano di qualcuno che faccia una parte del lavoro può servire.

Va anche considerato il fatto che ancora non è chiaro  come il Tempest verrà finanziato ; per gl'inglesi , farlo da soli vuol dire svenarsi . Si pensi a quello che va spendendo LM per gli aerei suoi , pur potendo contare un quantitativo di ordini superiore e conseguente profitto . Giapponesi e svedesi , interpellati nel periodo di Farnborough , hanno per ora risposto col silenzio e una partecipazione di Boeing potrebbe smuoverli . Unica altra alternativa è di trovare un riccone arabo con la voglia di spendere qualche milione di sterline senza pretendere ritorni tecnologici e industriali.

 

[Flaggy]

Engine…Per fare un caccia di sesta generazione servono accordi internazionali, miliardi di dollari e migliaia di ingegneri e tecnici.

Cosa cavolo c’entra con tutto questo un buco di capannone da 6200 metri quadri (manco 80x80 metri…) in cui lavorano 52 persone, di cui 20 apprendisti, che mettono insieme attuatori idraulici per velivoli civili?

E’ praticamente un’officina meccanica frutto di un modesto investimento (40 milioni) per razionalizzare la linea produttiva di pochi componenti a bassa tecnologia per velivoli che con la sesta generazione non hanno nulla a che spartire.

[Flaggy]

Il 17/7/2018 in 00:01 , Flaggy ha scritto:

I britannici rischiano ancora di pagare la genialata della Brexit a caro prezzo e quindi non è che sia così automatico trovare i soldi per un caccia di sesta generazione, mentre in questi anni si affermato di voler mettere tanta carne al fuoco, a partire di ulteriori F-35 (questa volta A) e proprio al posto dei Typhoon di sua maestà, passando per il drone FCAS franco-britannico (che sembra buttato alle ortiche) e ora spuntano fuori questi due progetti (quello di matrice francese e la new entry britannica) che a guardarli sembrano separati alla nascita.

Ecco, adesso non sembra più: il drone anglo-francese è proprio stato buttato alle ortiche... e la sigla FCAS è bellamente riciclata per il programma franco-tedesco.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/dassault-confirms-end-of-anglo-french-ucav-work-456199/

 

[TT-1 Pinto]

Intanto ... Dassault puntualizza ... e pone steccati ...

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/dassault-chief-warns-on-creating-eurofighter-20-f-456242/

 

 

[TT-1 Pinto]

Meeting a Farnborough ...

Quote

Companies from across the UK defence industry have come together in the first opportunity for suppliers to engage with the Government and Team Tempest partners over the future of Combat Air System development in the UK. 
The event in Farnborough was launched by Minister for Defence Procurement, Stuart Andrew MP, and saw 300 delegates including SMEs and technology-led organisations attending to build connections and take part in a series of briefings outlining the capabilities and skills needed to shape the future of Combat Air System delivery in the UK.
The Tempest programme aims to harness and develop UK capabilities that are critical for Next Generation (NextGen) Combat Air capability and to retain the UK’s position as a globally competitive leader through understanding of future concepts, technologies and capabilities.
--- --- ---
Hosted by Team Tempest (a co-funded technology initiative bringing together the Royal Air Force Rapid Capabilities Office, Dstl, DE&S, BAE Systems, Rolls Royce, Leonardo and MBDA) and facilitated by ADS, the event offered a briefing for UK industry to better understand the Tempest programme and its role in supporting the UK MoD’s Combat Air Strategy and was followed by a separate, classified briefing.

 La fonte ... baesystems.com ... https://www.baesystems.com/en/article/uk-government-launches-opportunity-for-industry-to-collaborate-on-the-development-of-next-generation-air-power ...

[nsauro]

e il governo italiano che fa? Niente manifestazioni di interesse per il futuro?

[Flaggy]

Bisognerebbe chiedere a Leonardo se ha fatto presente la cosa a Conte & Co...visto che loro hanno le idee più chiare che a palazzo Chigi...

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/leonardo-targets-role-on-uks-tempest-next-gen-fight-456692/

...ma non ce lo vedo il MISE di Di Maio manifestare certi interessi...

[nsauro]

La vedo dura...
Se foste voi a poter decidere preferireste chiedere di entrare nel team Tempest o nel team franco/tedesco? Quale sarebbe l'opzione migliore per le nostre industrie? Io da profano, propenderei per il Tempest, sia per il fatto che la divisione inglese di Leonardo è già coinvolta, sia perché al momento il progetto non ha altri aderenti, dall'altra con l'aggiunta della Spagna sono già in 3, e se è vero che l'unione fa la forza, in molti casi (Eurofighter docet) è vero il contrario... Poi la Dassault mi sa che vuole essere prevalente, quindi saremmo relegati a portaborse... Voi che ne capite di più cosa pensate?

[fabio-22raptor]

Da qualunque punto di vista la di guardi, l’adesione a uno dei 2 programmi presenta rischi. Guardiamone alcuni:

- i due prodotti rischiano di farsi la guerra a vicenda in ambito commerciale, riducendo le possibilità di ricavi. Lo abbiamo già visto.

- il T-50 / SU-57 ha dimostrato che non ci si sveglia una mattina e si fa un caccia stealth. Lo studio e le risorse da investire sono enormi.

- Come andrà con la Brexit nel caso si guardasse al Tempest? A che livello possiamo coinvolgere le nostre aziende? Come andrà con i francesi che ultimamente non sembrano gradirci troppo e che vorranno sicuramente avere il ruolo trainante? Quale peso abbiamo per chiedere porzioni più ampie di partecipazione (e ricavo)?

 

Ecco, il nostro governo dovrebbe porsi e poi rispondere a queste domande e poi decidere verso chi guardare perché lo stare a guardare comporterebbe la perdita di questo treno, qualunque esso sia

[engine]

I due progetti sono ancora in alto mare , nonostante le immagini pubblicate.

Per entrambi manca ancora un vero requisito operativo da parte delle forze aeree interessate e , in questo momento, si configurano come iniziative aziendali , da imporre alle forze aeree stesse , grazie ai classici meccanismi delle pressioni politiche ( = lobbying )  .

Dal punto di vista finanziario , il progetto franco - tedesco parte da una base economica più solida , non dovendo , tra l'altro, spendere soldi per far evolvere una macchina simile allo F-35 .

I problemi sorgono a livello di ripartizione del lavoro , cosa normale nelle collaborazioni europee . L' aereo lo fa Dassault , lo dice il governo francese e quello tedesco tace ,quindi acconsente . E Airbus che fa ? Forse qualcosa di dettaglio e una certa quota di lavoro sul software e sull' avionica  ma dovrà adattarsi a essere subalterna. Storicamente parlando , Dassault non è mai apparsa disponibile a formare consorzi su base paritaria ( " Noi i caccia li sappiamo fare, voi no , quindi tasi e sgobar " ) .

Ah , gli spagnoli, dicevi ? Non possono fare diversamente da quanto deciso , dato che CASA è una dépendance di Airbus ( = EADS ) , ergo , se vogliono lavorare .... ; ma è probabile che racattino le briciole. Quindi per noi , è meglio star lontani .

Restano gli inglesi che , in piena febbre da brexit, si sono messi in testa di essere americani e partono con l'idea di farsi da soli ( ? ) un caccia di 6a generazione , macchina sulla quale nemmeno oltreoceano le idee sono chiare. La sensazione, però è che , in questa fase cerchino un riccone finanziatore piuttosto che un partner industriale : non sono arrivate ancora notizie significative sugli esiti dei contatti avuti con svedesi e giapponesi. Almeno, non mi pare;  aggiornatemi nel caso.  Forse può entrarci qualche riccone arabo , voglioso di buttar soldi dalla finestra ?  Figuratevi contattare noi , col governo , si fa per dire ,  che ci ritroviamo .

E allora noi cheffamo ? La storia in realtà ci indirizzerebbe proprio verso Albione, con la quale ci sono state collaborazioni ancor prima che l'Euro vedesse la luce ( Tornado , EH-101 , nonchè i motori inglesi usati da aerei italiani ). 

Quindi direi Tempest , ma puntando a entrare in un eventuale consorzio con le idee chiare su : 

--- ciò che l' aereo deve operativamente  fare in Italia , dato che le esigenze inglesi sono diverse da quelle italiane , trovandoci noi con le potenziali fonti di minaccia a distanze più brevi,

--- ciò che sappiamo e vogliamo fare in un progetto del genere , per non metterci a litigare sul numero di pannelli da costruire.

Si tratta, pertanto , di spremersi i cervelli sia a livello di vertici militari che di ambienti industriali .

Questo , ammesso e non concesso che sua maestà ci prenda nella cordata.  

Finirà come la TAV ? 

 

 

Modificato 21 Marzo 2019 da engine

[fabio-22raptor]

È molto probabile che non finirà come il TAV. Non inizierà proprio. 

[nsauro]

Neanche a farlo apposta ecco un'articolo che parla proprio delle aziende che spingono perché il governo prenda una decisione e cerchi di entrarenel Tempest
Leonardo-Finmeccanica, chi preme su governo e Difesa per il caccia di sesta generazione made in Uk

[TT-1 Pinto]

Leonardo ed alcuni 'think tanks' italiani stanno esercitando pressioni sul Governo affinché l'Italia aderisca al programma Tempest ...

Quote

The Italian element of Leonardo said it was actively urging the Italian government to join the British FCAS work. 
Several influential think tanks in Rome have also pressed Italy’s government to join one of the two European projects, primarily urging it to side with the UK option, arguing that Italy would be sidelined if it joined the Franco-German efforts.

L'intero articolo ...

Quote

UK Tempest Next-Gen Fighter Program Draws Notice Of Potential Partners ...

Tony Osborne - Aviation Week & Space Technology - Apr. 10, 2019

As potential foreign partners take a serious interest in British proposals to develop a new-generation combat aircraft, the UK government and industry are quietly working on the technologies that will pave the way for it. 
Few details of the Tempest’s progress have emerged in the nine months since British Defense Secretary Gavin Williamson unveiled the UK vision for a new combat aircraft to be ready in the late 2030s. 
To get there, the UK is taking a multipronged approach. 
While the Combat Air Strategy outlined that Britain would stay in the combat aircraft development game, the Future Combat Air System Technology Initiative (FCAS TI), an eight-year, £2 billion ($2.6 billion) program of research jointly funded by government and industry, is examining the technologies that could be needed not only for the future combat aircraft but also to support future upgrades for the Eurofighter Typhoon and the Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF). 
The public face of FCAS TI is Team Tempest, the joint government and industry consortium made up of the Royal Air Force’s Rapid Capabilities Office, BAE Systems, Leonardo, MBDA and Rolls-Royce. 
All these elements feed into an acquisition program within the Defense Ministry that will ultimately lead to a platform to replace the Typhoon. 
An initial business case for that platform will be delivered in December 2020, a full business case in 2025 and initial operational capability in 2035. 
“Everything we do is focused on ensuring the UK is ready as a globally competitive combat air enterprise,” Group Capt. Jez Holmes, the Team Tempest program director, tells Aviation Week.
“What we’re trying to do is produce something that delivers credibility in capability terms and also delivers prosperity for the nation by bringing in partnerships,” he says. 
Team Tempest’s sphere, in addition to conceiving and developing technologies for the future aircraft, encompasses the educational needs of the program so that skills can be maintained throughout the program’s life. 
“Part of the FCAS TI initiative and the industry contribution is about sustaining and building those teams that perhaps have not had a huge amount of demand over the past 10-15 years,” says Clive Marrison, industry requirements director at Team Tempest. 
Britain’s last Defense Industrial Strategy, published in 2005, stated that the introduction of the Eurofighter and the JSF meant the UK did not need to envisage building a new fighter for more than 30 years because they were both likely to have long operational lives. 
Upgrade programs for the Typhoon and development of the Taranis unmanned combat air vehicle (UCAV) demonstrator have helped maintain those skills, but the Combat Air Strategy said that without a “clear indication of future requirements,” key engineering skills were placed at “greater risk.” 
“Would we have lost those skills?” asks Marrison. 
“It is difficult to say, but without the investment both from industry and government in research and development over the last 10 years and now into FCAS TI and Tempest, we would not have been in such a good position to sustain and grow them again.” 
In March, Team Tempest held an industry day for potential suppliers to understand the Combat Air Strategy and how they can feed into the program through government and the Team Tempest consortium. 
It attracted some 300 delegates from industry and government. 
“It is not just about supporting the big four [BAE, Leonardo, MBDA and Rolls-Royce]; it is about supporting as much of the UK industrial and supply base as possible and bringing together as many of the clever minds, clever ideas and clever technologies as we can,” says Marrison. 
The team is hoping that the work on the Tempest can ignite interest in aerospace technology in the same way the Concorde did during the 1960s. 
“Some of the people who will be involved on Tempest, potentially in service until 2080, have not been born yet,” says Holmes. 
“Part of our intent here is to engage on a STEM [science, technology, engineering and mathematics] basis across the nation and bring something that gives them an iconic focus,” he adds. 
There is no shortage of international interest as well. 
In late 2018, Sweden’s Saab confirmed it was in a “deepening dialog” with the UK over joining the Tempest program. 
At the end of last year, the company carried out a 6 billion krona ($650 million) rights issue that CEO Hakan Buskhe said could provide funding for future work, including with the UK. 
The Italian element of Leonardo said it was actively urging the Italian government to join the British FCAS work. 
Several influential think tanks in Rome have also pressed Italy’s government to join one of the two European projects, primarily urging it to side with the UK option, arguing that Italy would be sidelined if it joined the Franco-German efforts.
Beyond Europe, the Tempest is one of several options being studied for Japan’s F-3 future fighter requirement to replace the indigenous Mitsubishi F-2, and the British government reportedly has also made offers to India, with which it has previously partnered on the Hawk and Sepecat Jaguar. 
FCAS TI is currently focused on 60-70 technology projects, some lasting 1-2 years, others planned to last the full length of the program. 
Some of the initial work underway on concepts and requirements is feeding what Holmes calls an “initial gauge,” supporting the opening stages of the acquisition process. 
“It will start to deliver them with credible evidence about not only what the need but [also] about what we think we are able to do in an affordable way, with a focus on future adaptability and growth potential, so that we ensure we set ourselves up on a path for success,” says Holmes. 
Part of that work is on industry sustainability; others have a more international flavor, such as several projects with France looking at communications and interoperability enabling future platforms to work together in a coalition. 
Progress also is being made on development of a comprehensive open mission-system architecture designed to embrace avionics, sensors, connectivity and command-and-control systems.
Definition of the architecture and component specifications are close to completion, and components are being built for testing. 
The architecture will not only underpin the potential for spiral development but also will allow partners or export customers to integrate their own mission-system fits quickly, as it has systematic reuse of software at its core. 
With data becoming the currency of the battlefield, and future combat aircraft gathering up information from the electromagnetic spectrum and sensors, any future architecture likely will have to cope with terabytes of information, Holmes suggests. 
The challenge will be turning that data into “decision-quality information and presenting it in a useful way,” says Holmes. 
The ability to do this will depend on how quickly the aircraft’s systems can be upgraded. 
“What we’re focusing on in some of our work is how we make that much quicker, much easier and much more affordable,” he says. 
Such an approach could blur the lines between generations of fighters, Holmes says. 
While the Typhoon is considered a fourth-generation combat aircraft and the F-35 as fifth-generation, the Tempest is widely considered to be sixth-generation. 
However, the aircraft might not be considered as such when it enters service in the late 2030s. 
“We have architected our capabilities in the past in such a way that you have to talk in generational terms, because they have a long life, and step changes in capability are more challenging to deliver,” says Holmes. 
Nevertheless, Holmes points to the Panavia Tornado, which when it left service at the end of March was an almost entirely different platform from when it entered service. 
The Typhoon will be the same, he notes. 
“What is needed for a future combat aircraft is a regular, constant drumbeat of flexibility and upgradability, allowing that capability growth to happen much more quickly . . .  almost breaking down the generation nomenclature to much smaller bite-size chunks,” says Holmes. 
The UK’s heavy investments in unmanned combat aircraft technologies will also be applied. 
The UK Defense Ministry and industry, led by BAE Systems, has poured hundreds of millions of pounds into a series of technology initiatives that ultimately led to development of the Taranis UCAV demonstrator and almost paved the way for a joint UCAV demonstrator with France, until the plans were shelved last year. 
Many of these underlying technologies for the UAVs and UCAVs are “very transferable across to the systems-of-systems approach for FCAS TI,” Marrison says. 
Those programs resulted in technologies for signature awareness and control, mission-system architectures, low-probability-of intercept communications and the ability to rapidly—potentially in real time—upgrade software and mission capabilities and orders. 
“None of the areas of development and design and technology that we saw through those unmanned aerial systems - be they at the design, information, mission-system or architecture level - are going to go to waste,” says Marrison. 
Like its Franco-German counterpart, the future British combat aircraft will likely end up working with unmanned platforms, perhaps as so-called loyal wingmen or as attributable systems designed to deceive air defenses, such as the swarming systems revealed by Williamson in February and expected to enter service in the early-to-mid 2020s. 
In recent years, the UK has been experimenting with adaptable payload bays, advanced materials and new approaches to cockpit development, including the use of augmented reality. 
It has also invested in cyber-resilience, making software dynamically reconfigurable and more difficult to hack. 
Some of the successful technologies that could emerge from the Tempest could also end up in the Typhoon. 
Rolls-Royce is testing some of the technologies it envisions for a future Tempest powerplant on a Eurojet EJ200, which could result in improvements for the Typhoon. 
“We are working closely with Typhoon, working closely with the F-35 team as well, so we can spot those opportunities as and when they arrive,” says Holmes.

 

Modificato 10 Aprile 2019 da TT-1 Pinto
***

[engine]

Non so fino a che punto sia verosimle , ma....

https://it.insideover.com/politica/la-svolta-atlantica-di-leonardo-la-difesa-italiana-sempre-piu-vicina-a-usa-e-regno-unito.html?utm_source=ilGiornale&utm_medium=article&utm_campaign=article_redirect

 

[TT-1 Pinto]

Team Tempest ... Q & A ...

Quote

Team Tempest was launched at Farnborough last summer amid huge media interest. 
We talk to BAE Systems’ Strategy Director Michael Christie to learn more about Team Tempest.

... world.eurofighter.com ... TEAM TEMPEST TAKES SHAPE ...

[TT-1 Pinto]

E c'è pure in arrivo la Svezia ...

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Sweden is set to become the first international partner to join the British “Tempest” sixth-generation fighter program.
An announcement involving the governments and industries of the two nations is expected to be made at the three-day Royal International Air Tattoo (RIAT) event, which begins July 19 at RAF Fairford, according to industry executives.
The British government took the wraps off the Tempest program at the Farnborough Air Show last year. 
The project is the main attraction in a new combat air strategy stitched together largely to enable the British defense aerospace industry to maintain its technological edge in developing jet fighters.

... defensenews.com ... Sweden to join British ‘Tempest’ next-gen fighter push ...

[TT-1 Pinto]

La Svezia ... c'è !!!

Quote

Sweden has become the first nation to join forces with the UK on its Tempest future combat air system (FCAS) project, with the pair having signed a memorandum of understanding to cooperate on the initiative.
“Discussions between industries and governments had been ongoing since July 2018,” the UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) says (*). 
“A joint government feasibility report was completed in April 2019, informed by a joint report from UK and Swedish Industry.”

... flightglobal.com ... RIAT: Sweden joins formation with UK on Tempest programme ...

(*) ... gov.uk ... UK and Sweden partner on future combat air ...

 

[TT-1 Pinto]

LANCA ...

Quote

Three bidders have been selected to pursue a UK contract to build and fly a lightweight affordable novel combat aircraft (LANCA) demonstrator: a class of unmanned vehicle which could potentially one day be used in coordination with assets such as the Eurofighter Typhoon, Lockheed Martin F-35 or Tempest future combat air system.
Blue Bear, Boeing Phantoms Works International and a Black Dawn team – including Bombardier Aerospace’s Belfast unit and Northrop Grumman UK – will contest the requirement.

... flightglobal.com ... RIAT: UK takes wraps off unmanned LANCA concept ...

[nsauro]

E la povera itaglietta?