F-22 Raptor - discussione ufficiale

[Ospite intruder]

dai ragazzi non scoraggiatevi, per noi l'eurofighter è stato un grande passo avanti (vi ricordate i vecchi F-104? ).

In futuro ci avvicineremo sempre di più alla tecnologia americana.

 

Guarda che gli F104 erano americani.

[Blue Sky]

Guarda che gli F104 erano americani.

 

Inoltre, proprio l'Italia ha gestito la cosa in modo a dir poco scellerato continuando ad utilizzare e updatare un aereo che presantava i suoi limiti già dai suoi primi voli (Con tutto il rispetto che ho per il venerabile Spillone!)

[pilotadelladomenica]

Inoltre, proprio l'Italia ha gestito la cosa in modo a dir poco scellerato continuando ad utilizzare e updatare un aereo che presantava i suoi limiti già dai suoi primi voli (Con tutto il rispetto che ho per il venerabile Spillone!)

 

Beh, non esageriamo...

 

nel 1954 un aereo come lo Starfighter sembrava l'avverarsi della fantascienza. I limiti sono usciti fuori tutti solo a metà degli anni 60, in Vietnam, e poi nella guerra Indo-Pakistana del 1971, dove ha dimostrato di essere inferiore ai Mig 21.

 

Nel 1966, quando volò il primo F104S per sostituire gli F86H e gli F84F, i primi (scadenti) risultati di F104 e Sparrow dovevano essere evidenti. Ma la concorrenza era di fatto limitata agli F4D, giudicati troppo costosi, e ai Mirage III, ancora "Untested" (la guerra dei 6 giorni era ancora nel futuro) oltre che, forse, troppo "francesi" per l'epoca.

 

Col senno del poi avremmo forse fatto meglio ad aspettare un attimo e poi prenderci gli f4E, anche se in numeri inferiori...

 

Ma qui andiamo fuori tema.

 

E' vero che incredibilmente ci avviamo ad avere una forza aerea di primissimo ordine, e per la prima volta nella storia AMI ha un caccia state of art. Secondo solo ai (pochi) F22 USAF. (E così sono tornato in tema!)

[Ospite intruder]

Saxby Chambliss (R-Ga.) continues to vow a fight on Defense Secretary Robert Gates’ plans to halt the F-22 Raptor program at 187 of the stealth jet fighters.

 

In an April 13 teleconference call with reporters, Chambliss said restoring the F-22, which is assembled at a Lockheed Martin plant employing about 2,000 in Marietta, Ga., was “by far, at the very, very top of my list” when he gets back from a congressional fact-finding trip to the Middle East and Afghanistan.

 

Chambliss said he was surprised when Gates announced April 6 that he was halting acquisition of the F-22 at 187 of the high-tech aircraft that cost about $140 million each.

 

Chambliss, a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee (SASC), said he knew he was in for a fight with Gates over increasing the F-22 buy, but “I didn’t think he’d cut the program.”

 

Chambliss continued to call Gates’ decision “purely budget-driven.” Sen. Johnny Isakson ®, Georgia’s other senator, joined Chambliss in a joint statement April 6, saying he, too, “will be taking the case of the F-22 to members of Congress and the Appropriations committees.”

 

Chambliss, who successfully fought off an attempt two years ago to slow Raptor spending (DAILY, June 23, 2006), declined to say which senators have made common cause with him this time, but he noted the Connecticut congressional delegation has written to President Barack Obama protesting the F-22 cuts. Pratt & Whitney makes F-119 jet engines for the Raptor in Middletown, Conn.

 

Sen. Christopher Dodd (D-Conn.) is expected to face stiff re-election opposition in the fall because of his involvement, as chairman of the Senate Banking Committee, with the unpopular banking and financial industry bailout. So it would be hard for him to support the Obama administration on defense cutbacks that could cost jobs in his state.

 

Chambliss called fellow SASC member Sen. Joseph Lieberman, (Conn.) a Democrat-turned-independent after losing a primary election for supporting Bush administration war policies, “a strong ally and he will continue to be.”

 

Asked if he was concerned about locking horns with Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) the senior Republican on the SASC, who has heartily endorsed Gates’ plans to revise the Fiscal 2010 defense budget request, Chambliss said it wouldn’t be the first time “John and I had a tough fight over the F-22.” Chambliss noted that McCain has not singled out Gates’ F-22 decision for praise, but merely said the budget revision “was headed in the right direction.” Chambliss noted he supported reforming defense acquisition and supports the Levin-McCain Weapons System Acquisition Reform bill, although he would like to see some changes made before final passage – either as a stand-along bill or part of the Fiscal 2010 defense authorization bill.

 

www.aviatonweek.com

[F/A Fede]

Inoltre, proprio l'Italia ha gestito la cosa in modo a dir poco scellerato continuando ad utilizzare e updatare un aereo che presantava i suoi limiti già dai suoi primi voli (Con tutto il rispetto che ho per il venerabile Spillone!)

Diciamo che l'acquisto degli F-104 è stato un atto a dir poco scellerato..non per andare off topic ma gli F-104 si sono dimostrati un disastro..

..oltretutto noi da bravi italiani continuiamo ad usarli al limite delle capacità operative.. vabbè.. sicuramente verrò lapidato dai "fedelissimi" ma è la verità questa..

[vorthex]

non temere, non sei l'unico a pensarla così

[paperinik]

..oltretutto noi da bravi italiani continuiamo ad usarli al limite delle capacità operative..

 

Guarda che è dal 2004 che l'AMI non vola più sul 104...

[Dominus]

Poi non fu certo scellerato l'acquisto dell'F-104, ma la decisione di puntare sull'ASA nel 1977.

Quando entrò in servizio con l'AMI il bisonico americano era un signor caccia

[F/A Fede]

Guarda che è dal 2004 che l'AMI non vola più sul 104...

Giusto ho detto una boiata io.

 

Ma vi sembra il caso di volare nel 2004 su un areo del dopguerra ovvero con un progetto alle spalle di 40-50anni per intenderci?

[Dominus]

E ti sembra il caso di continuare con l'off topic?

[Ospite intruder]

Guarda che è dal 2004 che l'AMI non vola più sul 104...

 

Sempre ventanni di troppo, direi.

 

 

 

Sull'F22 vi segnalo questo articolo http://www.upi.com/Security_Industry/2009/...44611239722662/

 

Ci ho messo un po' a trovarlo, l'avevo intravisto ieri...

Modificato 16 Aprile 2009 da intruder

[Simone]

L'F-22 sarà anche l'aereo migliore del mondo nel suo ruolo, ma adesso come adesso mi sembra una scelta giusta comprarne solo una limitata quantità, non per altro perchè i soldi percomprrne 800 e pi come indicato all'origine non ci sono. I senatori "lamentevoli" lasciano il tempo che trovano

[Tuccio14]

L'F-22 sarà anche l'aereo migliore del mondo nel suo ruolo, ma adesso come adesso mi sembra una scelta giusta comprarne solo una limitata quantità, non per altro perchè i soldi percomprrne 800 e pi come indicato all'origine non ci sono. I senatori "lamentevoli" lasciano il tempo che trovano

Come sempre, si spera che la pace duri per sempre.

[Ospite intruder]

I senatori "lamentevoli" lasciano il tempo che trovano

 

Le anime buone pure, ma dopo aver fatto danni.

[paperinik]

A quanto pare il programma d'assemblaggio del Raptor si avvia davvero verso un inesorabile fine.

La Lockheed Martin (probabilmente contenta della conferma in toto dei fondi per l'F-35) ha fatto sapere che non si opporrà in alcun modo alla decisione di terminare la fase produttiva dell'F-22.

I 186 Raptor in servizio saranno cmq oggetto nei prossimi anni di vari altri programmi di upgrade.

 

Lockheed Martin to accept F-22 termination decision

 

A top Lockheed Martin executive says the company will not oppose the Department of Defense's proposal to halt F-22 production. The company stands to lose production lines for the F-22 and the VH-71 presidential helicopter under fiscal year 2010 budget proposals announced by Secretary of Defense Robert Gates on 6 April.

 

"We're disappointed by the decisions, but we'll accept those and go on," says Lockheed chief financial officer Bruce Tanner. Its revenues are likely to continue to grow as a result of proposals by Gates to increase other programmes, such as the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, Littoral Combat Ship and terminal high-altitude area defence system, he told investment analysts on 21 April.

 

Tanner also says that closing the F-22 production line after building 188 operational aircraft for the US Air Force, including two crashed jets, may not necessarily spark mass layoffs.

 

Lockheed and its suppliers had made potential job losses a major theme of their campaign to extend production of the fighter, claiming that 95,000 jobs nationwide would be at risk if the programme were allowed to phase out in the first quarter of 2012.

 

But Tanner now says F-22 losses could be offset by a "significant up-tick in production for the C-130J, as well as a significant up-tick in production for C-5M". However, "it remains to be seen whether those things align perfectly", he adds.

 

Lockheed has already announced plans to roughly double C-130J production by the end of this year, and the C-5M is transitioning to full-rate production. Both programmes are based in Marietta, Georgia, where the F-22 is assembled.

 

The F-22 programme is also in line to receive up to billions of dollars for modifications and upgrades over the next several years. The USAF already pays Lockheed about $1 billion annually to sustain the F-22 fleet, and Tanner says this amount is expected to grow significantly over the next few years. However, it is unlikely to equal the roughly $3 billion budget to build 20 F-22s each year.

 

Finally, the USAF must pay Lockheed an unspecified amount to cover the costs of shutting down its production line, which will be amortised over the final four F-22s expected to be purchased.

 

Tanner meanwhile says Lockheed remains unaware of the details of a proposed F-35 programme acceleration announced by Gates. "A multi-billion [dollar] funding increase is obviously something we notice as well," Tanner says. "But it's not entirely clear to us without the details of the budget exactly what that is for."

flightglobal.com

[Dominus]

Chissà se il pentagono comprerà le linee produttive e le metterà in naftalina come quelle del B2

[paperinik]

Chissà se il pentagono comprerà le linee produttive e le metterà in naftalina come quelle del B2

 

Buh. L'articolo dice chiaramente che il Pentagono dovrà accollarsi le spese sostenute dalla Lockheed per la chiusura dell'impianto. Se poi ciò costituisca una variante del popolare "chi rompe paga e i cocci sono suoi" non te lo so dire.

[Tuccio14]

Chissà se il pentagono comprerà le linee produttive e le metterà in naftalina come quelle del B2

Io credo che sia il minimo da fare, sempre meglio essere previdenti. In qualunque caso sarebbe un'ennesima prova della straordinarietà della macchina.

[diavolo rosso]

Magari con la scusa dei costi di smantellamento l'USAF la trasformerà in linea "naftalinizzata" e appena si presenterà l'occasione (esportazone o altro) con questa scusa se ne produrrà ancora qualche lotto.

[ilclod]

Entro solo ora nella discussione citando un articolo:

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/...-shut-down.html

 

ho appena letto quest'altro articolo,

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/...ion-damage.html ,

e mi ricorda tanto il caso del Tornado abbattuto da un Ducato (fiat) citato in un topic apposito.

 

Ora, senza aver letto (ovviamente! ) per bene gli articoli, mi sembra di vedere una leggera confusione nell'aria. O è solo una mia impressione?..

[Demon Lord]

Ragazzi una domanda: voi sapete se l'F22 Raptor è capace di effettuare la manovra "Cobra"?

 

P.S.

Sono nuovo sul forum: sapete se c'è una sezione dove presentarsi? Perchè non l'ho trovata. Grazie!

[VittorioVeneto]

Ragazzi una domanda: voi sapete se l'F22 Raptor è capace di effettuare la manovra "Cobra"?

 

P.S.

Sono nuovo sul forum: sapete se c'è una sezione dove presentarsi? Perchè non l'ho trovata. Grazie!

 

http://www.aereimilitari.org/forum/index.p...ost&p=61652

 

Qui per presentarsi ...

[Loy]

X Demon Lord: sì l'F-22 può fare il cobra di Pugachev

 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4306529957288052978

[Ospite intruder]

Japanese F-22 Campaign Lives On

 

Jun 3, 2009

 

 

 

David A. Fulghum davef@aviationweek.com

 

 

 

 

 

 

Japanese defense officials have not given up on buying the F-22, as both Japanese and U.S. operational specialists note that the advanced fighter and cruise missile threats from China are growing.

 

Moreover, they expect future diplomatic conflict perhaps armed clashes over unpopulated islands west of Japan to increase as various countries in the region argue about conflicting claims to oil and gas development.

 

The long distances involved and the lack of runways to the west and south of Japan create a unique operational need that the Japanese Air Self Defense Force can only partially fulfill. It has modern KC-767 tankers and E-767 AWACS to patrol its islands, but not the fighter aircraft with the speed, altitude, stealth, precision attack and small-target radars that would allow them to move quickly across the great ocean expanses between Japan and China. The small target capability would allow for a cruise missile defense and precision target would allow a defense if its islands were occupied by foreign forces. Japanese officials say that they are constitutionally prevented from increasing force structure, therefore they must have higher performance aircraft.

 

Japan's F-X program is aimed at buying 20-60 high performance F-22-like aircraft. The follow-on F-XX effort is being written to an F-35-like requirement for many more aircraft. Both programs will replace existing aircraft.

 

The problem continues to be a U.S. congressional ban against selling the F-22 to foreign countries favored by the House Appropriations Committee's chairman, Rep. David Obey (D-Wis.). But rumors persist - despite denials from Lockheed Martin that it will do any more lobbying for sales to the U.S. Air Force or foreign nations - that some congressional committees will push legislative language ordering USAF officials to look at the cost and production issues associated with building an exportable version of the F-22.

 

U.S. aerospace industry officials say this kind of uncertainty on foreign sales and the undefined schedule for a shutdown of the F-22 production line has created massive confusion over what all these various options would cost.

 

"Options have been bandied about for years," said an industry official with insight into the program. The ban on sales "can be changed by Congress. But right now nobody knows if the multiyear contract for 60 more F-22s is in effect, if there's only going to be a purchase of four more aircraft since the GWOT supplemental is not firm. And Lockheed Martin doesn't know if it's going to be a hot or a warm shutdown."

 

A senior U.S. Air Force official says a closed session last week with the Air Force chief of staff, Gen. Norman Schwartz, was extremely negative.

 

"There is no plan to go beyond 187 F-22s," he says. "The Air Force will not oppose Gates and it remains under a gag-order even with regard to Congress."

 

Defense Secretary Robert Gates has testified last month that the so-called gag order instituted during budget-making earlier this year was fully lifted when President Barack Obama unveiled his Fiscal 2010 request, and that military officers are free to offer Congress their opinions.

 

The senior USAF source told Aviation Week that F-22 shutdown would cost $400 million at least, probably more. Congress could keep it going on a year by year basis, but except for the Georgian delegation, there is no political advantage to supporting further production. "I don't think additional F-22 production will pass through Congress and survive conference in a final bill," the official said.

 

A recent Rand study said that depending on the shutdown option, costs could range from $250 million to $550 million. Those studying the issue say that the 2009 defense authorization act, section 815, says the Pentagon cannot conduct a cold shutdown and "break tooling." Doing so also could trigger something akin to the litigation that continues over then-Defense Secretary Dick Cheney's shutdown of the Navy's A-12 stealth fighter program. An appellate decision this week in that case in favor of the government touched off another round of court fighting, with Boeing and General Dynamics committing to further appealing the 18-year-old dispute.

 

For the F-22, Lockheed and the Pentagon have not yet started negotiating how to shut down the line.

 

"Finally, there's no move afoot to sell F-22s to Japan," the USAF official says. "Gates and the Defense Department are pushing F-35. But there are 12 F-22s from Langley AFB [Va.] in Okinawa [Japan] right now working with the JASDF. If the Japanese want F-22, they're going to have to make the argument themselves."

[butthead]

X Demon Lord: sì l'F-22 può fare il cobra di Pugachev

 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4306529957288052978

 

questo video per chi dice che l'F-22 nel dogfight non è uno tra i migliori...