Marina Militare Indiana

[enrr]

Buone nuove...mica tanto

 

Il dipartimento di stato blocca le LM2500 all'India e forse a tutti gli altri

 

Articolo dall'indiano Bussiness Standard

US orders GE to stop operationalising gas turbines on Shivalik Frigates

 

f the United States ranks near the bottom amongst India’s defence suppliers, Washington’s penchant for imposing sanctions and restrictions has much to do with it. Now, the US appears to have shot itself in the foot again. The Indian Navy chose to power its indigenously designed, cutting-edge stealth warship, the INS Shivalik, with gas turbines from American company General Electric (GE). But even as the Shivalik readies for sea trials, the US State Department has ordered GE to stop all work on the turbines it has supplied.

 

Vice Admiral HS Malhi (Retired), chairman and managing director of Mazagon Dock Limited (MDL), which built the Shivalik, has confirmed to Business Standard that GE has received instructions to stop operationalising (making ready for operations) the two new LM 2500 gas turbines that it supplied for the Shivalik. GE has told MDL that there could be up to three months delay, while the new US administration reviews its military relations with several countries. India is not alone in facing this ban; GE has been told to stop work even with close US allies like the UK and Australia.

 

MDL has clearly been taken by surprise. Says Admiral Malhi, “It is quite surprising that such a letter has been received from GE. They said the (US) State Department could take up to 3-4 months to re-look at relations with these countries. We don’t have that kind of time; we have to deliver the ship to the navy.”

 

The Shivalik stealth frigate is powered by four engines, in what is termed a CODOG (COmbined Diesel Or Gas) arrangement. Normal operations are powered by two Pielstick diesel engines, supplied by France. The gas turbines kick in for short bursts during combat, when extra power is needed. They are less fuel-efficient than diesel engines, but provide high performance. This is the first time that US turbines have been installed in an Indian-built frigate.

 

MDL is now exploring whether it can use another GE subsidiary to operationalise the Shivalik’s turbines, without invalidating GE’s warranty. According to Admiral Malhi, “If GE allows us to use one of its licensees, the delay can be cut down to a month. GE is not averse to that, as long as no American person is involved in the work.”

 

GE has not responded to an email, asking for details of this delay. The US State Department has also ignored a request for information. A spokesperson of the US Embassy in New Delhi has sidestepped the question, replying by email that, “The State Department has not instructed GE in the conduct of this direct commercial sale. Aspects of this sale were subject to export licensing, which is conducted through the State Department.”

 

When asked to comment specifically on blanket orders from the State Department to GE regarding commercial defence dealings with India, the US Embassy did not respond.

 

Recent Indian frigates were powered by Russian turbines. But GE’s LM 2500 gas turbines were chosen for three Project 17 frigates (of which INS Shivalik is the first) because of their better reliability. More than one thousand LM 2500 turbines power more than 400 warships in 30 navies across the world. In addition, the LM 2500 is used for power generation in luxury cruise liners like the QE II.

 

US defence industry sources indicate that GE is upset by the State Department’s directives, which clearly damage GE’s commercial interests. The ban, suggest sources, was imposed by an “over-enthusiastic State Department bureaucrat”, keen to display that the Obama administration was on the ball from the beginning. But in India, the ban is already generating talk of an unwise choice in going for a US engine.

 

 

Sul sito di GE o Avio nessun accenno alla vicenda

[enrr]

L'impostazione della Vinkrat

 

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/03/photo...eremony-of.html

 

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/03/photo...rom-cochin.html

 

PS: I russi fornendo i cavi d'arresto e qualche consiglio sulle soluzioni STOBAR sono diventati per la stampa i co-sviluppatori della nave per la stampa russa (RIA Novosti), ovviamente l'apporto italiano su design generale e motore (consulenza da 30 milioni di $) non vi è praticamente traccia

 

EDIT

 

Come sta quel giovanotto dell'Hermes..pardon Viraat

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/03/exclu...t-refit-at.html

Modificato 6 Marzo 2009 da enrr

[Sr50]

A quanto pare vorrebbero una seconda della classe per il 2017 http://www.indianexpress.com/news/3rd-airc...7:-Antony/31148.

Hanno anche commissionato da poco queste fregate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shivalik_class_frigate ma apparte i missili antinave russi (forse) e quello israeliano Barack mi sembrano indietro rispetto alle contemporanee occidentali anche se hanno dei buoni sistemi elettronici.

La cosa che le accumuna di più alle navi occ. è il 76 e con i missili israeliani lo ritengo l'arma più affidabile di queste navi.

Modificato 7 Marzo 2009 da Sr50

[enrr]

Un articolo più dettagliato da defenseindustrydaily sull'affair LM2500 e dall'articolo sembra che il blocco delle TAG non riguardi l'Italia che sembra completamente autonoma sul settore (e meno male altrimenti un blocco sui ricambi e ci fermano la flotta )

 

ed infatti la news di questi giorni riportano che gli indiani si sono rivolti a ... :rotfl: Rigraziamo Mr President per il lavoro supplementare

 

US State Dept. Throws A Wrench Into Exports, Allied Shipbuilding

 

India’s Business Times:

 

“If the United States ranks near the bottom amongst India’s defence suppliers, Washington’s penchant for imposing sanctions and restrictions has much to do with it. Now, the US appears to have shot itself in the foot again. The Indian Navy chose to power its indigenously designed, cutting-edge stealth warship, the INS Shivalik, with gas turbines from American company General Electric (GE). But even as the Shivalik readies for sea trials, the US State Department has ordered GE to stop all work.”

 

In July 2006, “India Orders 3 More Krivak III/Talwar Class Frigates” covered a $1.1 billion Indian order. The Krivak III Class is the basis for several current and future Indian Navy designs. These include the initial 1997 order, the “modified Krivak III” order placed in 2006, India’s “Project 17” Shivalik Class frigates, and a “Project 17A” that could either extend Indian modifications of the Krivak IIIs once again, or adopt an entirely different base platform.

 

Shivalik Class frigates are larger than the Talwar Class, and feature additional shaping and design changes to lower their radar and infared signatures. They also adopted a popular American turbine for combat propulsion, in hopes of improving operational reliability. Those engines are now sowing grave doubts about a different kind of reliability, as India is considering a number of major foreign defense buys involving the USA…

 

* Seeing Red: Red Tape, Redline Schedules & Red Ink

* Project 17: INS Shivalik et. al.

* Ongoing Developments [updated]

* Additional Readings

 

India’s Business Times:

 

”....GE has told [shipbuilder] MDL that there could be up to three months delay, while the new US administration reviews its military relations with several countries. India is not alone in facing this ban; GE has been told to stop work even with close US allies like the UK and Australia. Says [MDL chairman and managing director] Admiral Malhi, ”....They said the (US) State Department could take up to 3-4 months to re-look at relations with these countries. We don’t have that kind of time; we have to deliver the ship to the navy.”

 

....The ban, suggest sources, was imposed by an “over-enthusiastic State Department bureaucrat”, keen to display that the Obama administration was on the ball from the beginning. But in India, the ban is already generating talk of an unwise choice in going for a US engine.”

 

If the ban affects Australia as well, it could affect the Hobart Class air defense frigate and Canberra Class LHD amphibious assault ship projects. Like Australia’s existing frigates, and over 400 warships around the world, they chose to use a variant of GE’s LM2500. The first set for the Canberra Class is due in August 2009, while the Hobart Class isn’t due to accept the first set until 2010.

 

These engines are sold via Direct Commercial Sale, which is subject only to export licensing, rather than as a Foreign Military Sale which requires State Department approval and Congressional non-interference in order to proceed at all. That’s why India, and perhaps other customers as well, are looking for a quick commercial out, instead a lobbying campaign. If India can strike a deal with a non-American GE subsidiary or licensed partner for LM2500 engines, they might be able to sidestep the US State Department’s export licensing.

 

That maneuver would involve finding a partner with full independent production capability. GE has a successful partnership with Thales Australia, for instance, but it’s one that involves components rather than complete engines. GE has a partnership with India’s HAL to assemble LM2500 engines, but proper support requires more. Italy’s Avio, which is producing a variant of the LM2500 for the Franco-Italian FREMM frigates, would be one qualifying option – and appears to be GE’s choice. The associated condition would be that no American could work on the project.

 

All of this could hardly come at a worse time for the US-India defense trade.

 

American sanctions imposed over India’s nuclear tests in 1998 affected only a few pieces of defense equipment. Nevertheless, they left a lasting impression that has left India reluctant to choose American products, unless the alternatives are substantially worse. Recent treaties and warming of relations between the 2 countries have moderated those tendencies, but have not wholly removed them. With India reportedly expressing interest in American systems like the Patriot anti-aircraft missile and E-2D Hawkeye AWACS plane, and considering American equipment in international competitions like its $10 billion MMRCA fighter purchase, the long-term economic impact of an incident that re-brands the USA as an unreliable supplier could reach tens of billions of dollars in lost sales and maintenance revenue.

 

That is exactly what the US Department of State has done.

 

Project 17: INS Shivalik et. al.

 

Talwar Class frigates like INS Tabar aren’t really stealth warships, esp. by comparison to more modern designs like Singapore’s new Formidable Class frigates from France (a Lafayette Class derivative). They’re best described as mid-range multi-role frigates, with some radar reduction features. This does separate them from previous Indian ship classes, however, which have been Cold War era vessels that do not take these modern techniques into account.

 

The 3 Shivalik Class ships INS Shivalik, INS Satpura, and INS Sahyadri reportedly incorporate additional radar and infared reduction steps, in addition to its enlargements and other modifications from the base Talwar/ Krivak III Class. India has also issued a follow-on “Project 17A” RFI that requests additional radar reduction measures, to bring the next batch of ships up to fully modern standards in this area.

 

The frigates are powered by a CODOG (Combined Diesel or Gas) system, with diesel used for most activities and gas turbines kicking in during combat, or other situations when speed becomes more important than operating costs. The INS Shivalik and subsequent “Project 17” frigates decided to supplement their 2 French Pielstick 16 PA6 ST diesel engines with GE’s popular LM2500 series. The LM2500s will replace Russian turbines, which are considered to be more maintenance-intensive and less reliable.

 

Ongoing Developments

 

March 17/09: The Times of India reports that outsourcing to Italy is underway:

 

“Sources said MDL and Navy are now scrambling to get Italian company Fiat Avio to oversee the “operationalisation’’ of the two GE LM-2500 gas turbines of the 4,900-tonne frigate, named INS Shivalik, to ensure its sea trials can begin within a month or two.”

 

Fiat Avio builds a variant of the LM2500 engine for the new Franco-Italian FREMM frigates.

[Rick86]

E giunse il momento....

 

Prime prove in acqua per il sottomarino nucleare indiano il 15 di agosto

 

A rigore è un SSBN (e grazie ad esso l'India entra nel ristretto club di paesi in possesso di un deterrente nucleare imbarcato) ma in verità è il primo esempio di un SSN multiruolo, basato sugli Akula russi ma in grado anche di imbarcare un limitato numero di missili balistici.

[Dominus]

Su SSBN...non è un arma strategica, ha un braccio persino inferiore ai vecchi golf sovietici...

 

Poi credo che gli Indiani abbiano fatto il passo più lungo della gamba, è bello vantarsi di avere un SN nazionale, ma poi quando cominceranno i problemi vorrò proprio vedere.

[Ospite intruder]

Se poi godrà della medesima affidabilità degli aerei dell'IAF, stiamo (anzi stanno) freschi.

[Rick86]

A parte il fatto che ci monteranno a breve dei missili da 2000km di portata, verso chi potrebbero mai essere diretti i missili nucleari indiani?

 

Due soli paesi, entrambi a portata anche dei missili da 800km montati adesso.

 

Faccio a meno di dire quali sono no?

[picpus]

A parte il fatto che ci monteranno a breve dei missili da 2000km di portata, verso chi potrebbero mai essere diretti i missili nucleari indiani?

 

Due soli paesi, entrambi a portata anche dei missili da 800km montati adesso.

 

Faccio a meno di dire quali sono no?

Cina e Pakistan che, però, con i missili da 2.000 km. di gittata, possono essere colpiti più in profondità.

 

 

Intanto emergono problemi per gli "Scorpène" indiani (ritardi nella costruzione degli scafi in India ed aumento dei costi per le componenti da importare dalla Francia).

 

 

Eccovi il link ad un articolo in francese:

 

http://www.corlobe.tk/article14572.html

 

 

ed il link ad un articolo in inglese:

 

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/N...how/4633090.cms

[Cartman]

Intanto emergono problemi per gli "Scorpène" indiani (ritardi nella costruzione degli scafi in India ed aumento dei costi per le componenti da importare dalla Francia).

 

 

Che ci vuoi fare. Succede quando vuoi risparmiare e prendi prodotti di bassa qualità.

 

Ai sottomarini tedeschi queste cose non succedono :rotfl:

[picpus]

La situazione attuale e quella in prospettiva, della componente sottomarina indiana.

 

 

Il link ad un articolo in francese:

 

http://www.corlobe.tk/article14573.html

 

 

e, per quanto riguarda l'articolo in inglese, vale il link inserito nel mio precedente messaggio che, comunque, riposto:

 

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/N...how/4633090.cms

[picpus]

A fine luglio il varo del primo sottomarino nucleare di costruzione interamente indiana: l'INS "Chakra"; si prevede la sua consegna alla Marina indiana, verso la fine dell'anno prossimo..

 

 

Eccovi il link ad un articolo in francese:

 

http://www.corlobe.tk/article15083.html

 

 

ed il link ad un articolo in inglese:

 

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/all-set-...bmarine/486558/

 

 

P.S. Il sottomarino in questione, non è da confondere con il "Nerpa" (classe "Akula") russo, che la Marina indiana dovrebbe noleggiare per un periodo di 10 anni.

[diavolo rosso]

Ma il "Nerpa" non è il sottomarino che ha avuto un incidente e per questo ha avuto ritardi nella consegna alla marina indiana?

Modificato 8 Luglio 2009 da diavolo rosso

[picpus]

Ma il "Nerpa" non è il sottomarino che ha avuto un incidente e per questo ha avuto ritardi nella consegna alla marina indiana?

Sì, è quello.

[enrr]

Da una fonte di Mezzi Militari / FD dalla Palermo del nostro P. (sta foto la volevo da te, ora mi aspetto un aggiornamento costante quando le tue ossa sono in suddetta città )

 

Modificato 9 Luglio 2009 da enrr

[Ospite iscandar]

Da una fonte di Mezzi Militari / FD dalla Palermo del nostro P. (sta foto la volevo da te, ora mi aspetto un aggiornamento costante quando le tue ossa sono in suddetta città )

 

 

 

scusa cos'è quel pontone arrugginito???

[picpus]

scusa cos'è quel pontone arrugginito???

Guarda i link che seguono:

 

http://www.dedalonews.it/it/index.php/07/2...litare-indiana/

 

http://www.dedalonews.it/it/index.php/10/2...uadra-allindia/

 

http://www.difesanews.it/archives/fincanti...itore-dallindia

 

http://www.fincantieri.it/CMS/Data/prodott...EY_sottotitolo=

[Ospite iscandar]

Guarda i link che seguono:

 

http://www.dedalonews.it/it/index.php/07/2...litare-indiana/

 

http://www.dedalonews.it/it/index.php/10/2...uadra-allindia/

 

http://www.difesanews.it/archives/fincanti...itore-dallindia

 

http://www.fincantieri.it/CMS/Data/prodott...EY_sottotitolo=

 

 

una semplice risposta no!?!!?!? vero???

[picpus]

una semplice risposta no!?!!?!? vero???

Quando si può, un "minimo" di precisione non guasta!!!

 

 

P.S. Avevo cercato i dati del rifornitore indiano nel sito del Lustrissimo Sommo Venexian, ma con "somma" sorpresa, lì ho trovato pochino, ecco il link: http://digilander.libero.it/en_mezzi_milit...tml/jssmmi.html !!! (e ora chi mi salva dalle "lustrissime" sue ire!!! )

[Ospite iscandar]

Quando si può, un "minimo" di precisione non guasta!!!

P.S. Avevo cercato i dati del rifornitore indiano nel sito del Lustrissimo Sommo Venexian, ma con "somma" sorpresa, lì ho trovato pochino, ecco il link: http://digilander.libero.it/en_mezzi_milit...tml/jssmmi.html !!! (e ora chi mi salva dalle "lustrissime" sue ire!!! )

 

 

gli hai un offerta che non può rifiutare aaaaahh (musica di marranzano in sottofondo)

[picpus]

Da una fonte di Mezzi Militari / FD dalla Palermo del nostro P. (sta foto la volevo da te, ora mi aspetto un aggiornamento costante quando le tue ossa sono in suddetta città )

 

Cercherò di provvedere!

 

 

 

gli hai un offerta che non può rifiutare aaaaahh (musica di marranzano in sottofondo)

Scusami, sarò pur duro di comprendonio, ma non ho capito!

[VittorioVeneto]

gli hai un offerta che non può rifiutare aaaaahh (musica di marranzano in sottofondo)

 

Iscandar , quando citi film leggendari assicurati di farlo bene ...

[picpus]

A proposito del "Nerpa", riprese le prove in mare.

 

 

Eccio il link ad un articolo in francese:

 

http://www.corlobe.tk/article15110.html

 

 

ed il link ad un articolo in inglese:

 

http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20090710/155488008.html

[Ospite iscandar]

Iscandar , quando citi film leggendari assicurati di farlo bene ...

 

 

meno mal eche qualcuno ha capito

 

@ Picpus... mi riferivo alla frase detta da don vito corleone nel film il padrino

[picpus]

Dureranno 2 settimane le prove in mare del "Nerpa"

 

 

Eccovi il link all'articolo in francese:

 

http://www.corlobe.tk/article15114.html

 

 

ed il link all'articolo in inglese:

 

http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20090710/155488668.html

 

 

P.S. Forse, visti i veramente funesti precedenti, è più il caso del "gioiello" (si fa per dire! ) russo-sovietico "Nerpa", che quello della "Charles de Gaulle", di toccare ferro, incrociare le dita ed aprire scommesse!!! O mi sbaglio!!!